Posts by Sea Breeze

92

Ecclesiastes 9:5 -"the dead know nothing at all"

by aqwsed12345 in

the narrator of the book of ecclesiastes had very little knowledge of many things that jesus and his apostles later preached.

the author does not make statements, but only wonders (thinks, observes, often raises questions, and leaves them open).

he looked at the world based on the law of moses and found nothing but vanity, as the earthly reward promised in the law did not always accompany good deeds and earthly punishment for evil deeds.

Sea Breeze

If the dead are conscious, then that means they are alive

@enoughisenough,

No it means your assumption about the definition of death is different than the biblical definition of death. Modern Materialism gained steam in the 17th century. This is the template that you are superiposing on scripture.

The bible gives the definition of death early on:

Gen. 35: 17 - Now it came to pass, when she was in hard labor, that the midwife said to her, “Do not fear; you will have this son also.” 18 And so it was, as her soul was departing (for she died), that she called his name Ben-Oni; but his father called him Benjamin.

Bbilical death means separtion from your body.

enoughisenough, It is not necessary for you (or anyone else) to abandon belief in Materialism, that is personal choice. However, it is necessary for you to change your assumption on death when reading scripture if you wish to understand it as the writers and the early readers did.

Lazurus wasn't really asleep ( Jesus just lied )

Lazarus' body appeared asleep - motionless.

Instead of assuming that a man who walkied out of a tomb is a liar, ever think that just maybe Materialism is a lie? Maybe man is constituted of a soul, body, & spirit like scripture plainly states in two NT places. Maybe Jesus is correct when he taught consciousnesss after death dozens of times.

What prompts you to assume as truth ideas from men who lie & die over Him who publically demonstrated his power over death? What (or who) could compare with a display of power and authority like that?

92

Ecclesiastes 9:5 -"the dead know nothing at all"

by aqwsed12345 in

the narrator of the book of ecclesiastes had very little knowledge of many things that jesus and his apostles later preached.

the author does not make statements, but only wonders (thinks, observes, often raises questions, and leaves them open).

he looked at the world based on the law of moses and found nothing but vanity, as the earthly reward promised in the law did not always accompany good deeds and earthly punishment for evil deeds.

Sea Breeze

This is an example of irrational response to the plain voice of scripture. All for the sake of maintaining a doctrine not taught in the Bible but borrowed from paganism. You're converting no one.

@vienne

You and Russell are out of your minds on this point. Yall don't convert anyone with an ounce of common sense.

Or, do you wish to make a false universal doctrine out of yet another philosophical statement "under the sun" from Ecclesiastes ?

"money is the answer for everything” (Ecclesiastes 10:19)

Why don't you believe that vienne? Ummm?

The writer of Ecclesiastes ultimately rejects a carnal point of view ("under the sun") as striving after wind.... the one you (selectively) embrace. People want to believe that when they die there is no consciousness because they believe there is some comfort in that. Jesus is the ONLY source of comfort .... ever.... not some fake hope of unconsciousness.The reality is that Jesus taked over and over again about consciousness after death.

Every person ever born will be conscious forever. Jesus really wanted people to get this, if they got nothing else.

No Bible character places more stress on hell as the final consequence of God’s judgment for unatoned sin than Jesus. God’s Son was the greatest theologian on hell.

Jesus was the one who compared hell to the Valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem,thus “Gehenna” took hold as a name for hell. He also compared it to prison and to outer darkness. It was he who likened hell to “a fire” at least twenty different times.

“Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes may have eternal life in Him” (John 3:14-15).

Jesus invites everyone to spend eternity with Him instead.

He stated that he would die of his own free will and resurrect himself to show that he knew what he was talking about. I think I'll take him at his word. He is not someone that would mislead people, he is the TRUTH.

21

What does this even mean?

by Blotty in

"the son is born of the father by generation, but generation should not be understood in the everyday sense.

the son is derived from the father through pure spiritual generation, through the unlimited sharing of his essence.

so, the birth of the son is an intellectual activity of god.".

Sea Breeze

Can this be put in simpler terms (by someone who is not the original writer)?

Sounds like someone is commenting on the "Eternal Generation of the Son"

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God…And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.” - John 1

“The Word was Himself the cause of all created things; His eternal generation could be implied in the eternality of His existence and His distinct personality. I think it is difficult for us to imagine what "happened" before time. It is enough for me to state that at the beginning of everything, the Word was "already" God and with God.

An alternate view might be that Jesus was "only begotten" at his conception / birth in the incarnation- while "the Son" is an eternal description of the Word, unbegotten before the incarnation.

85

Physically in mentally agnostic ie sitting on the fence

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

hi everyone i’m not pimi or pimo i’m pima.. i don’t think the gb have everything right but i’m sitting on the fence that maybe they do some things.. if the great trib starts i will jump that side of the fence.. this is a definite little sneaky advantage dodging but even by their own doctrine last min some could come in.. i suspect many are like me.. i spent years in bethel and am very disappointed and disillusioned by it all.. but at the end of the day i love the bible and think it is the word of god and i don’t see any other religion that comes as close to what jesus describes his true followers or who are fulfilling mat 24:14..

Sea Breeze

into each weeks Bible reading and we often talk as if we doubt certain parts or we are trying to get to the bottom of something that doesn’t make sense, many times we just leave it that we can’t find the answers

@ EB PIMA

Your focus on Mt. 24: 14 is "out of season". Christians are (supposed to be) ready to talk about the kingdom, but like I pointed out above, the Christian message is one of reconciliation with God.

This is why when we went to the doors and preached the good new of the kingdom. Chrtistians gave us the "deer in the headlights" look. This gave the impression that they were clueless. Only they weren't. Christians rightly focus on being reconciled to God, just as the apostles taught, and this is the primary message you will hear in a bible believing church as opposed to a Kingdom Hall.

Scripture commands readers to "rightly divide" the word of God. That implies there is a wrong way to divide the scriptures as well.

The early Christians saw their mission as global in scope, but during his earthly ministry, Jesus explicitly declared his mission to be focused only on Israel (Matt 15:24). He claimed that his mission was only to the “lost sheep of the house of Israel”. The Gospels record Jesus as being up front about his nationalistic intentions.

His focus on Israel can be seen in his prophecies and pronouncements of judgment on the nation. Through symbolic, prophetic actions like cursing the fig tree (Mark 11:12-14, 20-25; Matt 21:18-22) and cleansing the temple (Mark 11:15-19; Matt 21:12-17; Luke 19:45-48, John 2:13-16), as well as strong prophetic denunciations (Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 21, 13:6-9), Jesus made his particular focus on Israel clear.

Therefore, we should say the mission of Jesus is first to Israel (through his own ministry) and then to the Gentiles (through the actions of his apostles),

The way to view the NT is that the Christian era is parantheitcal within the over all age of grace that Jesus introduced. The nation of Israel was already reconciled to God through the legal auspices of the OT mediated by Moses. The gentiles had no such reconciliatiatory covenant.

Once the Christian congregation is removed from earth (at the rapture prior to the Great Tribulation), then the total fullfillment of the Mt. 24: 14 will be reaized. It will be preached likely by the real 144K male Jewish virgins and untold millions of tribulation believers as well. It will literally be the last hope for man. Most if not all will be martyred though duing the GT.

But, the world isn't quite there yet!

Jesus was promised a nation, a kingdom and a people, and that is just exactly what he's going to get. The focus of the OT was on these things. The Christian era is simply a parenthesis to this overall objective. WE are the ones grafted into Israel.... not the other way around.

Romans 11: 1 - I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid.

Read the entire chapter of Romans 11 with the framework I just described in mind. It will make more sense.

35

Is WT Teachig on Hell Biblical?

by Sea Breeze in

i guess you could say jesus was the first christian, since he was the christ.

and as the first christian, jesus spoke more about hell that any other biblical figure.

but, he is also the figure that said that he didn't come to condemn the world, but to save it.

Sea Breeze

It is unwise to call the message that the Word of God had a part in conveying to mankind "a philosophical book" "carnal" and "physical".

EP,

I’m not the one calling it that. The book itself uses the phrase “under the sun” dozens of times so that the reader would know that this philosophical work is written from a physical world point of view.

No one ever misunderstood this until a man with a 7th grade education (CT Russell) came along and selectively quoted it as otherwise.

The fact is that you grew up as an atheist and you got all of your theology from one of the world’s largest and most abusive cults the world has ever seen.

Heres an honest question : If You were facing Jesus right now and he asked you why he should let you into his kingdom, what would your answer be?

35

Is WT Teachig on Hell Biblical?

by Sea Breeze in

i guess you could say jesus was the first christian, since he was the christ.

and as the first christian, jesus spoke more about hell that any other biblical figure.

but, he is also the figure that said that he didn't come to condemn the world, but to save it.

Sea Breeze

@EasyPrompt

Your posts are big on fluff and short on scripture. WT heresy cannot stand in light of the many scriptures I cited.

Please address the scriptures I cited if you want to be taken seriously.

35

Is WT Teachig on Hell Biblical?

by Sea Breeze in

i guess you could say jesus was the first christian, since he was the christ.

and as the first christian, jesus spoke more about hell that any other biblical figure.

but, he is also the figure that said that he didn't come to condemn the world, but to save it.

Sea Breeze

@enoughisenough

sea breeze- one of the original lies to EVE was she wouldn't ever die.

You assume that the definition of death is non existence. That is a materialism concept and totally unbiblical. Early on in the bible, a definition of death is given:

Gen 35: 17-18 Now it came to pass, when she was in hard labor, that the midwife said to her, “Do not fear; you will have this son also.” And so it was, as her soul was departing (for she died), that she called his name [a]Ben-Oni; but his father called him [b]Benjamin.

In the bible, when a persons' body becomes separated from their soul & spirit, they become "dead" - not unconscious.

For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead. - James 2: 26

When these three are rejoined after death (separation), a resurrection occurs.There is no such language in the bible like the the WT deceptively uses, like:

"resurrected to spirit life"

This phrase is totally made up and presupposes that death means unconsciousness. The WT is a master at building logical doctrines on totally false presuppositions (assumptions).

Two scriptures prove thaat man is a tri-partite being in the image of his maker (who is also a tri-partite being)

Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. - 1 Thess. 5: 23

For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. - Hebrews 4: 112

Their are dozens and dozens of other verses that also allude to this:

Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

In other words, you cannot be a Christian without being "born again" with a new spirit.

Believers experience assured salvation now because of that new spirit that is born from God (which literally makes believers his son)

Scripture is clear:

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free - Romans 8

The reason believers are not condemned (even in this life) is because the new spirit they receive is sinless, born of God and is actually them, their person. And since this is a supernatural work of God, which makes you a son, God has certain obligations toward his children to take care of them ,the same as any father has obligations toward his sons.

God, (and fathers such as myself) have no such legal obligations toward other peoples' children.

The whole concept of circumcision points to the future (now) when under a legal agreement, a person's old spirit is sliced off and discarded and a new sinless spirit is fused with a person' body and soul..... in this life.

Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel ...But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; ...I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people...for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. - Jer. 31 ("heart" is synomonous with "spirit" in the bible much of the time)

But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter - Romans 2

Once a person abandons the false definitions and narratives of the WT, the scriptures come alive.

Col. 2: 8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.

35

Is WT Teachig on Hell Biblical?

by Sea Breeze in

i guess you could say jesus was the first christian, since he was the christ.

and as the first christian, jesus spoke more about hell that any other biblical figure.

but, he is also the figure that said that he didn't come to condemn the world, but to save it.

Sea Breeze

Easy Prompt,

Your logic is fine. It is your presupposition that is faulty. In the bible, death means separation, not non existence.

For believers, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord:

Instead, I say that we are confident and willing to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. - 2 Cor. 5: 8

That is not a resurrection. In the bible, not only is the body is spoken of using pronouns. But, the soul and the spirit of man is assigned personhood as well.

BTTT, obviously fire which of this physical life would have at least a different affect on an eternal soul than it would on real flesh and blood.

But, I think it is a mistake to believe that Jesus' detailed adjectives about the torment, anguish, gnashing of teeth ...of eternal duration would be strictly symbolic. At the very minimum it could mean conscious eternal separation from God with the absence of anything good (outer darkness). At the maximum, it could mean exactly what Jesus said that it did.

35

Is WT Teachig on Hell Biblical?

by Sea Breeze in

i guess you could say jesus was the first christian, since he was the christ.

and as the first christian, jesus spoke more about hell that any other biblical figure.

but, he is also the figure that said that he didn't come to condemn the world, but to save it.

Sea Breeze

@enoughisenough

the dead know nothing at all - Eccl. 9: 5

It is unwise to take a philosophical book from the OT written strictly from a carnal or physical stand point and apply it as a corrector of Jesus words.

Eccl. 10: 19 "money is the answer to everything".

Why not make a Christian doctrine out of Eccl. 10: 19 too?

35

Is WT Teachig on Hell Biblical?

by Sea Breeze in

i guess you could say jesus was the first christian, since he was the christ.

and as the first christian, jesus spoke more about hell that any other biblical figure.

but, he is also the figure that said that he didn't come to condemn the world, but to save it.

Sea Breeze

I guess you could say Jesus was the first Christian, since he was the Christ.

And as the first Christian, Jesus spoke more about hell that any other biblical figure. But, he is also the figure that said that he didn't come to condemn the world, but to save it.

So with verses like these:

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels - Mt. 25 :31

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Mt. 10: 28

What are we to think? What did the first believers think on this topic? Yes, it is a hard teaching. One, that most Christians wouldn't mind if it wasn't part of Christianity. But, if you believe that Jesus resurrected himself from the dead like he predicted that he would, why would we doubt anything he said??

Would it be "in character" for Jesus to allow people to believe something false for 1800 years until a man who believed he was named in scripture as "that faithful servant" appointed over all of humanity (C T Russell), was born and corrected Jesus by announcing that hell was actually cold, & not hot?

What say you?